July 12, 2021

12: Rejections


This week (as the more astute of you may have gathered from the title of this episode) we talk about rejections – including a surprise for Tom and Jon that Dave has been keeping up his sleeve for over a decade! Plus there's an exciting announcement about our first live show. Enjoy!

Music by Dano Songs
Transcript

welcome to the failing writers podcast did you know if you play their jingle backwards you can summon the spirit of thomas hardy who will appear and perform a short jig for your entertainment before fading away into the carpet and leaving a tiny bit of sticky purple residue

so what we're talking about today we we said that we were going to talk about rejection yeah um probably need to have something else to talk about as well but we have to ask the question yeah as always oh boys i've got a bit of a confession to make on that score oh oh oh have you been writing anything i haven't touched anything oh tom i haven't that's all right we're all in our booth this is a bit like a confessional isn't it yeah yeah that's true we'll be your priest open the flap and tell us all about it my son i just uh it's okay just lost the merger on it wow on what on everything what is so were you supposed to be edited i don't know i guess i don't know what i'm supposed to be doing today

so i just didn't do anything oh that's terrible did you did you actually sit down did you do the classic thing sit down and try or you just it was no no i just even yeah just you know i think we go i should i should really just i just need a bit oh didn't get the motivation you need a clear goal yeah don't you that's your own prediction i just felt like because i was on kind of a bit of an upward slope on it yeah and uh yeah yeah feel better now that's out now i've been honest with you guys yeah yeah well try write write down three hail marys and uh that will that'll get you going won't it yeah you might just had a bad week it might just be hormones mate yeah it could be couldn't it be yeah

it's because you know that what you really need to do is uh prepare for self-publishing um actually yeah that's that's what you're holding back moving to the next stage yeah i think it might be a little bit just a thought have any either of you guys come across the writer's hour at all obviously not from the silence but it is a it's a website where you uh you basically register to join us like a writer's zoom group i think i i haven't actually done it myself but i think basically what happens is you all just sit and write together for an hour with some other writers but it's supposed to you know encourage her well that sounds hideous just a little bit i thought it might be quite fun for us all to do it's supposed to kind of encourage you know regular writing time do you have to you know i think i think you have to briefly introduce yourself at the start and say what your work in progress is and then you all just sit there in silence and write god i think we should do it one one morning i think that there's there's various different slots throughout the day yeah um for different time zones i feel like we might be the naughty people yeah so what so you what you say hello to everyone and then i think it's the same thing yeah but i think it's designed to you know you you're there for a reason then it's like and there are other people in your position so encouraging you to talk to people are you allowed to kind of go oh sorry group sorry to interrupt i'm just trying to find another word for sky i think it's mainly silence but yeah yeah do you have to be good though wouldn't it be good to like pretend something uh dramatic uh is happening right in the middle yeah like you're having a heart attack or something katie if i got katie to um put a balaclava on and climb through the window behind me see if anyone noticed oh very casually take a phone call a surprise phone call from a random publishing agent or something oh yeah but hang on yeah you do this you're on camera whilst so people are watching i mean presumably you can choose to turn your camera off or whatever but i think so i think it's just yeah zoom windows i haven't done it so i don't know but i think it'd be quite fun to just see do you pay for this like no it's free i think wow okay i've registered and they haven't charged me anything so i think it's i think it's free but i haven't actually done it yet but yeah wow i wonder how george orwell would feel about i don't know i mean he's dead tom so probably doesn't it isn't mine yeah that doesn't really matter now but that might help tommy if you had like a regular little slot even if it was just the three of us yeah i'll tell you what if you had people watching you all the time you might feel that you had to do something yeah that's what i mean yeah i think it might work we should do it well it's worth i'll tell you what we should perhaps we should investigate it so that other people don't have to exactly yeah yeah we could report back it sounds a bit ridiculous and desperate um which could be just the kind of thing i need exactly yeah yes so it uh what is it it's the i think it's just uh writer's hour.com register and then we'll we'll try and find a slot where we can all do it and we'll we'll yeah we'll do it for an hour next week god we know how to party don't we boys i'll tell you what bring some drinks and some snacks you're allowed to do that i know that's quite noisy can you imagine munching your way through a session what about like soup yeah slurpee it's not really a snack though is it i wouldn't i don't think if someone said i've got some snacks and then they got out some soup you wouldn't go oh yeah can i have can i have a biscuit it's not really a snack it's not a nibble is it not like you'd have to it'd have to be like frozen into cubes for it to be snacks but something you can have to be crunchy yeah yeah unless it started every day of the week i brought a couple of straws can all have some yeah what's the crunchiest snack um a a wheat crunchy a crunchy a cadbury's crunchy um yeah crunchy not corn flakes okay so we all we all bring a really crunchy snack and then see what happens yeah okay is there a moderator there must be i don't know there must be somebody yeah they'll be like yeah keep it down at the back it's feeling a lot like a gcse exam isn't it you've got an hour sitting in silence and yeah you're getting trouble and you have to get something done yeah are you allowed to go to the toilet or do you need to put your hand up and someone has to come with you to check that you've not got the entire

well yeah perhaps we should perhaps we should find out but um let's just try it i think it's maybe something that john should find out right i don't think we should all i think okay i'll do i'll do one i'll do one next week um let's move on to what have you written john well i have you just been looking at this website thinking about writing yeah no i've been uh i've been i've started outlining uh my next book have yeah which i never thought i would do because i'm not really an outliner i never have been anyway but i've been sort of inspired by owen and uh you know and beth and various people that we've spoken to uh because i feel like this book um would benefit from it what's it about talking bushes how the hell did you know that it's uh i've i've actually written a log line for it do you want to hear a log line yeah yeah um so the working title at the moment is not quite there but it's something like time wasted time wasted the time waster or something i'm not quite sure uh but it is it takes place in a herb packing factory and this guy's a particularly bad job no it's not that kind of time so uh it's a drunk and disgraced ex-scientist from 2056 hijacks a time machine in order to seek revenge on the man who ruined his career back in 2021 unfortunately the time machine's real purpose was to save the human race warning them of the imminent environmental catastrophe they're happily ignoring god so a petty a petty vendetta destroys the world yeah so he he goes back in time from a like a totally ruined uh horrible future well an imminent future where the world is basically in flames and uh goes back in time in this time machine in order to exact his revenge on the person that uh knackered his career wow but that wasn't the real purpose of the time machine but it's slightly more complicated than that but that's the basic idea so obviously he's got to kind of he ends up obviously having to try to save the world himself even though he's a drunken idiot wow cool so how far have you got with the the outlining uh i'm using um snyder's save the cat beat sheet which is the book that i was reading for our little oh yeah yeah book club thing which i won't go into in detail yet we'll maybe you do that in a different episode but it's basically it's basically like sid field's uh screenplay structure but we but he adds extra beats sort of to help you because with sid field it's a bit more it's you know there are kind of big gaps in the beat so you're not never quite sure where you're going right um i don't know if you've read that no dave that's like a sort of class kind of seminal uh sort of screen play writing thing but blake snyder's is really prescriptive i mean sid fields is prescriptive but it's like you have the break into the second act it has to happen on page 25 and don't even think about putting it on page 26 but you know when you watch a film you go oh yeah that that that exact point does happen at exactly that time in the film so you think well you know that is quite a good film so maybe i should pay some attention obviously it's slightly different i think with novels but but i think it's quite useful what's been really useful just to sort of help me put all the pieces together just to sort of focus on what the story's really all about and where it's going i always struggle with that it's a really hard thing to do isn't it to hold all that stuff in your head so i thought now i'm going to give it a go write some of it down that's well that sounds great yeah i'm not a bit i'm not a big fan of those i've read something like that there's sort of prescriptive things where right you're your screenplay the film's going to be 90 minutes so the screenplay needs to be 90 pages long so this happens on page one this happens on page seven yeah i generally speaking not a big fan of that kind of prescriptive way of doing things yeah it does feel really inhibiting is that the word isn't it i mean it's formulated yeah exactly yeah it's yeah and like everything seems like forced like you get you halfway through writing a conversation but then you have to stop because something has to happen right there but i think what's what's good about it is that it will help you sell your screenplay yeah because there are people that literally will flick to page 25 and go is it happening here yeah it is brilliant okay i'll keep reading yeah or is there some people you know you'll send a screenplay in and if something isn't happening at the time it's supposed to happen then we'll literally just chuck it in the bin so i think it probably you know if you're serious about selling stuff i think it probably works but yeah i agree i think it's really like yeah it turns everything into a formula but then you think well everything sort of is a form like all the really good stuff the difference the difference is though isn't it whether you're writing to the formula prescriptively or whether you're naturally writing and what you've written ends up fitting the formula anyway into it because stories do yeah well i think it does i think if you'd write something good it sort of does that anyway yeah but you might be a page out but it's a good it doesn't alter the fact that's still a good framework to use yeah but i'm i'm not being obviously it's not a screenplay so i'm not being as structured as that but i'm sort of just using it yeah use the basics as a guide really yeah well that sounds exciting john so there's exciting quite i'm quite enjoying it as well i didn't expect to enjoy it another another fortnight of writing and it'll all be finished i guess yeah yeah just be done yeah and i'll probably i should be uh what write the whole thing um after outlining it

should probably start looking for a an agent i think so publisher i would just bring up the printers yeah and see if they have got enough paper in maybe get some hotels booked as well if you know when you do your tour signing the store getting booked up yeah those little festivals they do get busy don't they yeah it's good though john what about you buddy uh i've just been slogging away writing more of the spooky war book and as we've established in recent weeks there are lots of issues with the book but at the moment i'm trying my hardest to ignore them and just get to the end i just want to get to the end i thought you were right i know yeah that's i think that's the right i'm near the end but it's i'm finding it really hard to to get anything else down because as i'm trying to write stuff there's a voice in my head saying yeah but you know this is all wrong and all of this has got to go so what's the point and i'm like like i'm just trying to go no i have to get a draft finished i have to be able to write the end before i can go back and change it all i think you're right dave i think you're dead right yeah exactly we've done so many interviews and we've done so many things yeah and everyone said you just have to get something down to change so uh yeah it doesn't matter if it's rubbish doesn't matter if it doesn't really make sense just get that first one but i'm finding it really because every time i even put my fingers on the keyboard just something in my brain goes oh what's the point because this is you're gonna throw this all away oh my god dave you're so dramatic i know i know but uh i had a bit of a bit of a breakthrough yesterday i managed to get um everything was on the keyboard

i touched plastic yesterday uh that sounds that's an awful pretty sound so

touching anything um but yeah so i've got um it's getting close to the end now um yeah people are people are starting to die oh that's good uh yeah so i've got so it's basically i've just got to get to the end of this chapter and then wrap it all up in like a little you know final chapter and then that's it i can have a rest is it a happy ending um have you decided on the ending sort of yeah it's happy in some yes i mean it's as happy as something can be when everyone's dying when people die horribly yeah um but the mate like the main well i do you know yeah the main character doesn't die so that's that's happened as long as the bad people die that's okay bad people die horribly good people come close to death but then don't die so that's cool yeah um and then they all go for a nice cup of tea are we gonna get to read your first draft birdie i would you consider sending it to us i was do you know what i was gonna do that and then i started thinking it's so wrong but i might i might give it to you anyway i might give it to you just to sort of yeah yeah just dessert back back up uh give us a bit of a laugh wouldn't it exactly read this out let's just do an episode where you pull apart everything that i've done in uh systematic detail that would be that would actually be a pretty great episode it might be helpful for another i'd love to i'd love to read it i think it's a really interesting project yeah a really difficult project but really i think it might be good for you as well dave to let me john read it in terms of um identifying what the big halls are for things that you might think are disastrous might not be you might be close to it sometimes or yeah but more importantly what the good bits are that you should expand on and yeah and obviously actually would be really good because we have no idea which part is from your brain and which part is from your dad's brain um so we we wouldn't have that yeah like prejudice bias prejudice of yeah of not wishing to get rid of stuff yeah sentimental value or whatever gym or whatever it is that's true yes so i'll i'll i'll i'll let you read it i'll let you yeah we should we should be able to share i've got to finish it first although it is it's quite painful sharing sometimes it's a bit naked isn't it it's that thing of not not quite knowing what you want from sharing it though isn't it yeah it's true because if we just come back and go that's brilliant though dave you'll think well it's not really just saying that because it's yeah there's yeah whereas if we give some do any structured faber and then anything oh god what do i do yeah yeah maybe we don't read it if we read it but just keep our thoughts to ourselves there is something in the process of just handing something over that changes how you read something does that make sense as in you read it back and you go well they're thinking about this and and i'm not sure i'm happy with that line yeah because they're going to look at that and think that's not free yeah i think that yeah it's much harder to ignore stuff isn't it yeah it is yes but you definitely think about a piece of work very differently once you've handed it over to somebody because you can't lie to yourself anymore yeah that's what it is because when you do you tell yourself little fibs well i'll change that bit later kind of all right yeah and then someone else's actual eyes on it yeah the idea of that makes you think oh that's that's gonna go but it's true you do start thinking god bet i bet they've read that but i bet they don't like that you know what i bet that [ __ ] is the bit that's really sticking out and then suddenly you realize that you've known all along that that bit was wrong but like you say you've pretended it was okay you might think oh tommy you'll like this bit or bear do you like that bit and then it just vanishes over the heads and they don't no reference whatsoever which bit no i didn't even realize that yeah yeah let me explain to you why this is good read it again that reminds me of all the presentations i did at galaxy let me explain let me explain why this ad is good and i can see you're very underwhelmed right now but let me spend 20 minutes explaining why you shouldn't be yeah but you used to get to do that didn't you when you're presenting an advert back at least like sometimes you'd be presenting a 30-second advert but you'd spend five minutes before it's like setting up so that by the time they heard it they weren't thinking about the 30-second advert they were thinking about your five-minute explanation of why it was yeah yeah and it just all fitted in with that yeah i used to even stop in in the middle of the ad sometimes and explain what was going on yeah you can't really do that can you when you're sort of sending stuff off no not without looking like a complete man

is my 70 000 word book and here's my 120 000 uh preface of why you should like it

hello this is the queen of england when i'm not grooming horses watching the crown shooting things or petting my corgis i'm listening to the failing writers podcast it really is badly first rate isn't it boris a good boy

but yeah but we we did we we've talked about haven't we that we were going to discuss what happens when you when you do send stuff off to people and you get back uh sometimes reasonably uplifting letters and sometimes quite horrible rejections um have you guys had many rejections in your life well i would say that this section of the podcast probably mostly comes down to you dave because i don't think tom and i have sent a lot of stuff off what about you tommy no like you said um my my literary career has just been success after success really so um obviously there's the co-op poetry festival um yeah yeah that just got published so i figured yeah the start of a long and illustrious career um yeah so after after that it didn't seem really worth sending anything anywhere because it just seemed a bit too like oh you send it to publish it and what's the point in that good point um no just basically never finishing anything is a great um antidote to rejection yeah isn't it because yeah don't give them the opportunity that's what i no you never never have to be rejected i guess so yeah that's i mean i've sent stuff off and it's just vanished into the dark you know like on the bbc writers room or or right comedy series where you've written bits that were oh you have sent stuff off then hilarious and just don't get anything back anything that's cause you're not funny and you don't understand i'll show you by not sending you anything else in the future yeah i guess that's but that's the thing isn't it is that actually even getting a rejection is kind of a success in some way because more often than not you just don't ever hear anything you know you you sort of you send stuff out into the ether and the rejection is just never hearing anything back ever again it is the ultimate rejection really isn't it i suppose you can also pretend that maybe they just didn't receive it yeah whereas if you get an actual letter back you can't ignore the fact that they've read it and gone no yeah that's the problem isn't it because this was sort of i thought about talking about this because um the pharmacy script yeah has now been turned down by two separate uh bursary schemes in the space of one year so although i haven't actually received rejection letters as such i've just uh not been selected which is sort of rejection by proxy but that's one where i've where where that happened i sort of sent the script off to these different schemes and instantly started thinking about the things that were wrong with it and turned out i was right but um the problem is like you never know for certain if the things that i have now decided are wrong with it are the same as the things that the people who read it thought was wrong with it and that's the problem with not getting feedback isn't it exactly yeah yeah sometimes actually having just a harsh stark rejection letter it's a good thing have you got any of them yeah well i first i haven't got as many as i thought i thought i'd kept all of them but i must have had a moment a few years ago where i just burnt everything but i started sending sketches to the bbc i sent a bunch to hat trick as well when i was about 18 which is the same age that peter cook was when he wrote the one-legged tarzan sketch but that's pretty much where our similarity ends because i got these these letters back that just said thanks and they used to have the time to do this they would send back letters and said thanks for sending all these sketches in we won't be reading them any further but you know but thanks won't even be reading any more of your work well maybe i phrased that wrong yeah we'll never look at anything with your name on it ever again we looked at the first ten words not a single funny word you'll not bother reading the rest but you know they were sort of just sort of standard uh i think a lot of departments used to have a standard rejection letter that they would send so you would you'd put your stuff in an envelope send it off they would put it back in a different envelope put a letter a standard rejection letter in it and send it back to you but that was it was never enough to sort of turn me off and then i remember we talked about the the scottish people tom the um all right yes yeah well i sent some sketches to him before we did that uh training session um yeah that training session and i do have the letter that he sent back and it starts with overall i thought this was a very good solid batch and we've talked before didn't we about this sort of issues with word like solid or competent um but it was quite an encouraging letter well you know we sort of said that things were kind of well written um and if if there was like a show that if i'd sent these into a specific show that they were making um he would have asked for you know a couple of rewrites and some of them may have gone into the sort of short list so that was good and that's what kind of got me sending more sketches to them and eventually ended up getting that one on tv which was actually none of these i've got the list of the sketches that i sent to him and none of the ones that i sent ended up in that show i guess that's kind of how it works isn't it you said it's quite a long process of sending sending bits in and just getting someone to recognize something somewhere that they like and asking for more and eventually you get something on tv and it's difficult to know what exactly they want isn't it once you sort of start communicating you can it's difficult before yeah well that's the thing unless you're writing for something very specific so like looking at this letter it's not it's nothing about what they like per se but it's there's a few things about what they don't want so things like a bit on the long side uh a little bit long-winded and over-complicated sort of uh traditional topics and rather you know sort of sort of doctor surgeries and that sort of thing well they didn't want that yes they wanted yeah so this is come on kind of well that's the thing standard response is that we don't want we don't want things that we've had before um but then stuff that gets made tends to be a bit like stuff that's been made before that's what's always very confusing isn't it and i don't know whether it's just that it starts off with the best of intentions and gets watered down in the process so they don't want to start from that point because if that gets watered down it'll get watered down to nothing or whether it's just there are very few things that end up on tv that are genuinely like new and different but they tend to be the things that everybody remembers yeah so everybody thinks we want something new and different but actually they don't because what ends up being made more things like the new and different things yeah yeah absolutely there's you know because uh because i think it's just stuff costs money to make isn't it stuff costs money to to produce yeah yeah exactly you know if there's a name somewhere behind it or there's something that uh that is going to instantly drag an audience in because it's familiar in some way that's the eternal yeah problem in hollywood in a minute isn't it with it with the film output do you mean would you rather make fast and furious 27 and have a guaranteed box office profit of whatever or make some weird film about a drunk scientist that travels back from the future to try and save the world but he doesn't really want to he's just a bit annoyed with that's a his idea

but if it was your money on the line you'd probably go with fast and furious 37 well combine them you could combine them easily hold on a minute yeah and that just makes it sound like one of those classic uh pastiche of a hollywood meeting isn't it where you take you you take your scripts in of the time travelling scientists and they go yeah brilliant but what if the scientist was a driver okay well we i guess we could can we make him bold let's make him bald what it wasn't a time machine but it was a subaru any more uh you've got any more rejection letters yeah if you must have i've got one that says must have loads more i've got one that says it says from the 15th of june 2007 dear david john and tom what thank you for sending us your script saturday night television which we have now had a chance to consider we are afraid that at this point we are not able to take things any further with you on the basis of this script

is that it uh well we're sorry to not have better news

as you'll appreciate we receive a large number of scripts each week and can only focus on those few projects and writers that have a strong chance of commission the they really missed out on that one didn't they seriously but yeah that's a that's a our one and only joint rejection letter i never knew you sent that off no well i sort of did it in secret i just sort of uh yeah i never knew we'd been rejected

is it too late to appeal to them now uh i mean what are we talking uh 14 years ago i mean i really think we'll be hitting the zeitgeist now with the yeah yeah that's the trouble we're just massively ahead of our time yeah exactly i think sketches about um you've been framed uh on the radio we're still currently still curious yeah some of the jokes in it might be considered a little bit yeah maybe maybe yeah yeah but i don't even know if sanjeeta patel still works as a script assistant in the writers room at the bbc possibly not in the last 14 years i would imagine they've worked their way up somewhere yeah well packed it all in because it was just so heartbreaking turning down such amazing work yeah we could have been the straw that brought the camels back this is ridiculous

we just can't make it it would make everything else we produce look bad it's too destroy the reputation of the people in the letter no don't tell him that in the letter they'll send it somewhere else i'll just keep saying i just want to crush the hopes and make sure it doesn't go any further so they never send anything ever again yeah that's pretty cool yeah that's what happened i'm cool with that now yep that's fine yeah that's fine that's good dave well saved up well well there's there's one more which is a slightly different type of rejection letter which was actually quite encouraging to begin with so i sent some scripts in for a particular show and they came back and said one said nothing really wrong with it but we've had a few sketches along similar lines so you know we might take yours we might take a different one and there was another one that said oh i like the idea of it but could you try rewriting a few bits of it so that's it's quite that's an encouraging sort of letter to get oh yeah but the sort of downside of it is when i did do the rewrites and sent the rewrites in i never heard anything back again and i can't help it that means i may have made it significantly worse than it was in the first place despite having quite detailed notes about what it was that they wanted so that's that's quite uh that's quite bad isn't it it seems a bit me yeah and the only other thing is that so uh the sort of scheme that i met queef on the the northern loves sitcom thingy oh yeah um i progressed was that the jeremy yes yes so i progressed quite a long way through that i had these sort of one-on-one meetings with jeremy dyson uh we had the sort of big final thingy up in edinburgh um and it was it was just it was it was a wonderful great uplifting experience and then a short while after i just got an email that said uh thanks for thanks for being in this we won't be progressing with it any further uh best of luck in the future and that was kind of it and somehow that was that was even that was like the worst kind of hammer blow because it had been this great long process um all the while thinking wow this you know i'm actually achieving something here and then it just sort of ended and it wasn't like a harsh um rejection it was just like yeah that's that's that we're not taking it any further that's come to an end which was quite sort of you know yeah quite deflating so it wasn't designed to lead to anything no i think no and exactly and that's the point they you know they never said you know at the end of this you will become a multi-millionaire or anything like that um i think those are the courses you want to be very cautious of dave except the ones where they actually say that explicitly are usually the ones where there's something rub it off somewhere that's not all you have to do is send us a million pounds and at the end of it um but no there was no there was never any sort of promise of anything but yeah that sort of just it just felt like it reached an end and then just fell off a cliff i did get and i got a nice letter from jeremy dyson saying that you know saying that he liked it and he enjoyed working with me and that was that was good i've kept that i was gonna say that's framed on your wall isn't it yeah well i've got i've said i think your script was great um and i saw i kept that bit but yeah so that's that's the sort of you know the long the long way of saying i've never achieved anything

but at least i've tried you know at least i've put myself out there david there's a lot to be said for that yeah too true so tommy what any rejections no no no rejection from that surprise one that dave's just hoisted for some reason for his own pleasure if i've got to go through it i've been holding that rejection for the both of you for all these years just waiting for the right time to make the most impact exactly yeah i thought i'd wait until there were other people listening yeah good point uh before i told you no i said i've been ignored on stuff that i've sent off um but yeah no one's been that bothered to actually subject me so dave's doing quite well actually yeah well done dave in a funny way yeah i suppose so but it's i think it's just something that you kind of have to get used to if you if you want to write stuff and you want other people to read it you have to be ready for people to say they don't like it at some point and uh and i think you have to accept that they might not be right exactly yeah we can tell ourselves that yeah no i don't think it's even a case of that i think during this it's not there's not a right answer obviously those people are deciding what's right for their program or what's going through but it doesn't it doesn't mean what you've done it's not rubbish or not usable in a different place or time yeah and i think that's where becoming uh persistent and resilient yeah and a bit thick-skinned is actually a huge part of the yeah skill set of being a successful writer isn't it yeah you see i'm not that at all i think beard i think you're quite resilient aren't you you're a good bounce backer but it's interesting how many people we've spoken to recently have said that no like nothing that they've ever written has been wasted which is a really interesting way to look at stuff you know you try something it doesn't work someone says it not right now or it's not the right thing but you can always repurpose it somewhere down the line you just learned something yeah it still exists remember if you're enjoying the podcast i mean even if you're just barely tolerating it please recommend it to your friends so any anything else to talk about might be a good time to link into that book yes so we've got uh we've got a chap called chris paling a writer uh queued up on the show we've just interviewed him last night and he's written a rather wonderful book called a very nice rejection letter which is very apt he's actually got he's actually got his rejection letters at the back of the book as well which you can read and enjoy yeah um which i felt was after reading the book was a really great thing to read through them at the end rather than having them sort of spaced through anything but to have them as a little separate library of rejections and you could kind of see the little ups and downs what we're just talking about there about how some are just like not really bothered and just you know scriptimatic rejection letters and some of them were like really kind yeah they were very encouraging and the last one of course is the one that says we would be delighted to publish your book yes that must be end that must be a nice thing hey i think owens owen said that he still got the email didn't he where where he'd said we'd like to be your publishers that must be that would be a good moment isn't it lovely feeling let's try and get some of them then shall we yeah for next week let's try and get

our task for next week is to write an acceptance letter for each other let's send it to each other yeah i'm not sure that's quite what we're saying

yeah but anyways good interview looking forward to uh looking forward to that dropping yeah really nice guy and very nice chat yeah just another good another good aspect on on the world of getting published and not being always successful but having little successes and trying to just enjoy the process yeah of writing yeah even if you never make it and you sort of you know you're wading towards the end of your career and you i think chris was sort of very aware that he's never going to be like a you know huge best-selling author although who knows i mean yeah it's like he's decided that that won't happen but he's had some you know he's had so many uh brilliant reviews and critics have really liked his work very good writer yeah lovely lovely working of of language yeah in his in his writing but yeah so we talked a little bit about um what constitutes success don't we i think that's that's quite an important thing to think about really for you guys how would you how would you uh define what success would look like for you i think just if people i think if people come back to you and say i really enjoyed that even if it's only like a handful of people i think that might be all i think my internal definition of success as a writer has changed since we've been doing this podcast oh really so what did it begin i think my definition of success before this podcast was uh literally being a best seller if you like like kind of you know like getting published getting lots of money from being published yep that's the success do you mean yep i think now i think having spoken to all these people having chatted with you guys having actually got back into the writing i think success in writing is just moving forward yeah yeah i don't think there's a i don't think there needs to be or has to be a set of goal posts no and there isn't really an end point is there i mean being published is an end point but as we know from chris it's not necessarily and i think that's probably what i thought as well success would be writing a novel getting it published but then it isn't is it because then if you do that then are you saying well there's a next one today are you doing it full time because then there's a lot more to do yeah and that's what you're doing yeah and getting one novel published that's not really a success yeah so i think it's it's very individual and i think it is just uh so for me success will be getting my silly little sales book published yeah or getting it ready to be published will be a success or just be happy with what you've got i think i think that's true and i think that makes it um much more manageable as well rather than having these grand visions in the future that yeah jonathan ross moment yeah one step at a time yeah but i think yeah i think my viewpoint has massively changed on that's interesting i think it's also like i think i've discovered in the process of doing this podcast that it's incredibly hard to get people to read your books like i think it's probably a lot harder in some ways to be a writer now than it's ever been just because there's so much more content out there yeah it's like doing a podcast as well getting people to listen to your podcast 10 years ago people listened to your podcast because you were one of you know a handful of podcasts yeah yeah but you know i think it the more content there is the harder it is to get people to yeah focus in on what you're doing even if your podcast is really really short yeah exactly that means obviously yes but maybe the problem is we yeah we haven't we don't have the opportunity to explain to people why our podcast is so good

we could just have that opportunity just give us five minutes well but one of the measures of success i think is whether you get invited to appear at the oakley literary festival fringe events well i think you're absolutely right dave but yeah that is very exciting news isn't it it's uh yeah we we are doing a live event well teller tell us all about it john it's your local yeah you made us do it it's happening it is yeah so uh we are gonna be part we're doing a live event we're gonna be part of the ilkley literature fringe festival um which takes place during the summer and we are going to host a live outdoor podcast event at ilkele manor house and we're billing it as the greatest story ever written in the history of the whole world ever pretty much a guarantee by the way yeah i mean i think it is you're gonna come away from that having learned a lot it's gonna be a life-changing event isn't it i mean there's people you know that were lucky enough to be at the 1966 world cup final yep um live aid yeah 1985 world snooker final between steve davis and dennis taylor maybe been to see ready steady cook line yeah i mean big things this big events in world history yeah but what's incredible is it's a free event what i mean can you please it says you don't even have there's nothing coming from there well it's not coming from anywhere dave jesus christ this is getting worse by the minute so we're wait but when when is it john well dave it is on august the 5th at 6 30 p.m and it's it's not going to be very long basically maybe long enough john it'd be long enough it would seem it will seem really long but it's only 45 minutes i mean it'll be a while yeah so we've got 45 minutes and the plan is to improvise a story using suggestions from the audience how how can people become part of that well we will be posting on our website all the details i think it is a ticketed event uh but we don't have all the details yet but we'll put it on the website as soon as it's available and uh you can just click on that get a free ticket and then turn up and uh i think there are there should be some spaces for people just rocking up on the night so if people went to failingwriterspodcast.com that would be a good place that's perfect to see all the details failing writers podcast yeah.com yup failingwriterspodcast.com there you go uh yeah how exciting wow are you guys excited or trepidatious or hey i'm a little bit nervous i won't won't lie but uh it'll be fun i'm just excited because i think we'll be awesome yeah i think it'll just be really good fun yeah i'm i'm actually really looking forward to hearing the greatest story in the history of the world ever at the end of the show yeah because i have no idea what it's going to be yeah yeah i don't think we've over built it dear just just when you said that out loud then i don't know my god yeah that'll be all right yeah i think so but yeah that will be exciting i i i for one can't yeah it'll be fun well that's another exciting episode of the failing rights podcast in the can isn't it yeah goodness me people will be just relieved that it's finished just because it's so engaging exciting and informative what have we got next week then chaps what's coming up on next week's show next week uh we have another interview don't we do we who with the amazing kaz tudor oh my goodness me cj cj tudor in the house uh well i look forward to that the british female uh stephen king yes that's the one that very one yes well if if i was you i'd switch this one off go to sleep for a week and wake up when that's released next monday or maybe get hold of one of cj tudor's books in the meantime do some revision have a read of it and then next week when we're talking to him like oh yeah that book yeah yeah yeah okay that's probably a better idea i quite like the idea of sleeping for a week though dave i'm not gonna lie yeah it sounds good

how about you dave any family story right no no well jess is she's only six so i mean she makes up her own stories about barbie and i i just don't want to get in the way i'd only get it wrong i've actually imagined you there trying to get involved well wife barbie did this and then she didn't really say anything but um bless that day there's just a little note pushed with a rejection a little rejection there thanks thanks so much for taking the time to try and help with the story dad but on this occasion i won't be taking it anywhere it was quite solid

where's everybody gone?